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I've been known by several names in the SCA. Previously names were not particularly well researched. This time around, I'm going to do it right. I did the research and threw the dice. I never post real name stuff here, but need to bitch... for the sake of that, I'll be Godric Healfdene. The first name is an alias, the second name is my chosen one.
That first name is a good Saxon name, appropriate to time and place. My persona is Saxon-Danish fusion, consistent with Danelaw England. There's some debate as to how the well the Saxons and the Danes actually mixed at this time, but we'll ignore that for now.
Here's the rub, Saxons didn't actually use last names at this time. You might have a Bealdric from the South, or an Aethelred the Smith, but no real surnames yet.
On the Danish side, surnames, while still not consistent, are becoming more standardized. Last names are starting to follow the form of the father more consistently, like Olaf Guntharson; anything with -son. Danes also enjoyed descriptive names, giving us things like Ivar the Boneless.
A Saxon of my time wouldn't have a last name, but for SCA I've got to pick one. Healfdene mocks itself, since a Saxon wouldn't have such a name, where real Dane wouldn't have such a first name; as the name points out. It's also a safety, since it's not just a name, but a descriptive, which were commonly used. The spelling is from Beowulf, a poem dated to my time.
Why all the name stuff? Well, I just got a letter from the heralds and I'm at a loss as to how to respond.
Names changed and behind cut:
I have a question about your recent name submission.
You submitted XXXX Healfdene and noted that you accepted minor changes only. Unfortunately, to register your name, it is necessary to make a major change -- either adding an element or changing the language of the byname.
The name Healfdene is an Old English given name. While by the 13th C or so in Middle English, we start to see given names used alone as surnames, this is not the case with Old English. In Old English, patronymics (surnames that indicate the name of the bearer's father) are always marked -- they use a word to indicate the relationship. The form we would expect in Old English is Healfdenes sunu (Healfdene's son). This change would make the name registerable, but it is a major change (it adds an element to the name).
The other alternative is to change the spelling of your surname to a Middle English form -- Reaney and Wilson (A Dictionary of English Surnames) give the spellings Haldane, Haldein (although this spelling is a litte early to use unmarked, we generally give it the benefit of the doubt. Bardsley (A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames) has Haldeyne in 1275. A change to one of these forms would make the name registerable, but it is also a major change (it changes the language of an element).
My question to you is what would you like me to do with your name. Do you prefer/allow:
1. Leaving the surname in Old English and adding "sunu"
2. Changing the surname to one of the Middle English forms (and if so, which form do you prefer)
3. Return the name for more work.
I guess the question is, am I totally off? If not, what source would make my case? Number 3 sucks, number 1 is just silly, and I'm not sure number two even makes sense for 10th century.
Suggestions welcome.
That first name is a good Saxon name, appropriate to time and place. My persona is Saxon-Danish fusion, consistent with Danelaw England. There's some debate as to how the well the Saxons and the Danes actually mixed at this time, but we'll ignore that for now.
Here's the rub, Saxons didn't actually use last names at this time. You might have a Bealdric from the South, or an Aethelred the Smith, but no real surnames yet.
On the Danish side, surnames, while still not consistent, are becoming more standardized. Last names are starting to follow the form of the father more consistently, like Olaf Guntharson; anything with -son. Danes also enjoyed descriptive names, giving us things like Ivar the Boneless.
A Saxon of my time wouldn't have a last name, but for SCA I've got to pick one. Healfdene mocks itself, since a Saxon wouldn't have such a name, where real Dane wouldn't have such a first name; as the name points out. It's also a safety, since it's not just a name, but a descriptive, which were commonly used. The spelling is from Beowulf, a poem dated to my time.
Why all the name stuff? Well, I just got a letter from the heralds and I'm at a loss as to how to respond.
Names changed and behind cut:
I have a question about your recent name submission.
You submitted XXXX Healfdene and noted that you accepted minor changes only. Unfortunately, to register your name, it is necessary to make a major change -- either adding an element or changing the language of the byname.
The name Healfdene is an Old English given name. While by the 13th C or so in Middle English, we start to see given names used alone as surnames, this is not the case with Old English. In Old English, patronymics (surnames that indicate the name of the bearer's father) are always marked -- they use a word to indicate the relationship. The form we would expect in Old English is Healfdenes sunu (Healfdene's son). This change would make the name registerable, but it is a major change (it adds an element to the name).
The other alternative is to change the spelling of your surname to a Middle English form -- Reaney and Wilson (A Dictionary of English Surnames) give the spellings Haldane, Haldein (although this spelling is a litte early to use unmarked, we generally give it the benefit of the doubt. Bardsley (A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames) has Haldeyne in 1275. A change to one of these forms would make the name registerable, but it is also a major change (it changes the language of an element).
My question to you is what would you like me to do with your name. Do you prefer/allow:
1. Leaving the surname in Old English and adding "sunu"
2. Changing the surname to one of the Middle English forms (and if so, which form do you prefer)
3. Return the name for more work.
I guess the question is, am I totally off? If not, what source would make my case? Number 3 sucks, number 1 is just silly, and I'm not sure number two even makes sense for 10th century.
Suggestions welcome.
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From:
no subject
What documentation did you use for Healfdene other then Beowulf?
Is the note from your kingdom submissions heralds or from the Society name herald Margaret Pelican?
From:
no subject
The English surnames Aldeyn and Haldon are forms of Halfdan and appear in records from the 12th century (Lincolnshire Lay Subsidy Rolls, 1332).
Indeed, it's so common, I didn't imagine a problem. (e.g. in 1066 Fran and Halfdan held Ganstead manor, etc. )
From:
no subject
With the little info you give, #2 does not make sense for 10th century accuracy, and #3 may be avoided if you quickly do the work.
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
Why do you need a last name as you described it as opposed to a byname? The SCA requires two names, one a first name and one after that-- but the second part is just as likely to be the same kind of descriptive byname. You've given some examples of perfectly good bynames, why not use one?
Can you 'splain?
From:
no subject
King Harald is Harald Bluetooth as much as he is Harald Gormson. Healfdene is a descriptive. Using it as a byname is far more Danish than Saxon. It seemed appropriate to the time of the Danelaw, when the two cultures are starting to mix again.
Perhaps it's that there are two cultures in play that brings confusion? Does Old English first name confuse the reader? Would Harald Healfdene be a feasible name for a 10th century Dane? If so, could his Saxon mother call him Godric instead?
From:
no subject
From the research I did this morning, Halfdane (and assorted variants thereof) seems to be used exclusively as a Given name in both Saxon and Norse vairiant languages. The only byname/descriptor that I was able to find with the 'half' element was a reference to 'Halftroll' (Norweigan Norse).
Since Godric is an alias, would just using Healfdene (with a patronymic or descriptor) be an option?
If'n you want more info my email is on the profile.
Haldan
From:
no subject
Also, from SCA sense, wouldn't I really only have to find a clutch have passed Healfdene bynames? Looking into that too.
I'm rather attached to my given name, even it's often mistaken for a similar sounding modern variate. My RL first name has the some problem, so it's kind of funny.
I will illuminate the mystery with an email.
From:
no subject
What you need is to document that the elements of the name you would like to register were used in period in the manner you would like to use them.
From:
no subject
Unfortunately, my resources for Old English names are rather limited. I can look up Old Norse cognates in Lind if it's felt that might help.
-Evan (also got here via
From:
no subject
The intent of the name was to have something indicative of the Danelaw. An Old English given name with a byname relating to the newer Danish "immigrants."
That byname comes in the form of the Norse ( and Saxon ) convention of "nickname." However, Haelfdene itself is a given name, most commonly Halfdan. Neither language just uses a given name as a byname without modification, e.g. "-son" or "of", usually.
My assertion is that "half Dane" is a valid descriptive. If I'd chosen some other descriptive, like Forkbeard or Fairfax, this probably wouldn't be a problem.
From:
no subject